What Is Wrong With the World??

[hellison]

1. headline from bbcni re cervical cancer jab - "Girls urged to ABSTAIN in jab row"
why? Because its a dirty cancer you can get from SEX and obviously if you've been having sex you deserve it. Or... something.
More from the helpful FAQ here -

Colin Hart, Director of The Christian Institute, said the way to tackle the problem was not to offer injections, but to tell girls not to have under-age sex.

Ahh. So it's only *underage* sex that causes cancer. Good Girls won't get it, and thus don't need vaccinated. Well that's all clear then!

I know there are Other Issues around the vaccination and which version was chosen etc, but that's not what these people are saying. They're saying girls shouldn't be vaccinated against a potentially TERMINAL DISEASE, because then they might have sex! And we can't have that!!
Would there be the same outcry if it was discovered testicular cancer was also linked to a virus and teenage boys were offered it?

2. This article about date rape is making my head explode with WTF and RAGE. Because obviously if you go drinking with a guy who turns out not to care whether or not you're concious when he gets off on/in you, well that's YOUR fault you silly loose drunken woman. It's not like he's done anything WRONG, or should face any consequences for it! SKIN CRAWLING NOW.

SEND KITTENS PLZ. NEED HAPPY THOUGHTS.

ETA New Mistful Fic! and at lunchtime too. Couldn't have been better timed.

EDIT 2 - just to add, now the original RAGE has calmed slightly, this turned into a thought provoking discussion; a timely reminder the world isn't completley full of morons. Or at least my flist isn't ;) Thanks!

AAAAND if we can keep it civil kids, that would be good. _unhurt_, I still have crutches. And I know where you live. Keep up the ranting tho. Rants Good. CIder better. MOAR CIDER

Comments

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

To me tho, rape itself IS a violent act, whether or not there are bruises afterwards
Yeah, but surely there are different grades - as a comparison consider murder - would you view someone who killed someone else in a fight (unplanned outcome) as being the same as someone who killed in a premeditated fashion (deliberate outcome)?

"I was drunk and so it was rape" and thus divorcing oneself from any responsibility.
True, but how often does that actually happen? And do men not bear some repsonsibility for themselves and NOT getting themselves into that situation in the first place?
Now the first question I can't answer, the best option would be to review case proceedings from initial reports up to conviction - but since the records for rape cases are iffy (to put it lightly) that might be difficult to research.

How is it different from saying "I was drunk so I didn't realise you didn't want sex" and thus divorcing oneself from any responsibility?
True, up to a point. I think this would make for a very lousy defence - in the whole 'ignorance of the law being no defence' way. If you will, the former being a rewrite of a bad decision (this is assuming that last night's "Yes" becomes this morning's "No").

But emphasis is *always* on the woman's responsibility
I don't know how to answer this one easily - I think this is the point where I'd need to talk it through, over a pint or two. I don't think that the emphasis is always on the woman, but more that that's where it's vocalised as the other side is more implicit. I don't know, there are times when I wonder if I should perhaps require a signed sheet, witnessed by 2 neutral parties.

where are the articles urging men to be more careful? On how many men think its ok to have sex with a comatose women? On WHY they think that's ok (because they had dinner? Because she was flirting? because she invited them home? because she's there?)
Hmmm - the one thing I took away from the article that you cited was to do with the dangers of over-drinking. In some ways it's a bit moot as I don't go out like that these days (or rather I do, but not on the pull); but, I took it as much as a matter of caution for how things may be perceived.
With some of your other questions, I think part of it lies with the fact that the articles aren't going to challenge or investigate the received opinion - ie that it's wrong. I think the Indy piece would have been 'better' if it had been the personal experience of the person, as it stood it's just a bystander's opinion. But, even with this piece, I don't want to comment because I think there are too many blanks being put in - do we know whether the guy was reticent, but was persuaded by the woman that she was fine, how concious or drunk did she actually seem, did she get a second wind? Was she actually comatose - we don't know, all we are told is that she passed out in the toilets, how much time elapsed after she came to and they went to bed, did she drink plenty of water, coffee, eat food in the meantime? Again, I think we've too little information to judge, but enough to form an opinion.

I am actually enjoyining this now, rather than being ENRAGED as much, it's forcing me to think about WHY i got enraged etc
Ditto (although I have to admit I wasn't enraged to begin with) - I like this sort of discussion (then again, I was a member of DebSoc at Uni). It's part Devil's Advocate, part personal opinion (a word which I appear to be incapable of typing out), and part just being challenging.

[hellison.livejournal.com]

Meh, damn work getting in the way of LJ, haven't time just now to reply in full, just in response to your final point -

It is from one angle an interesting debate. This difference is for you, that's pretty much how it stays - hypothetical discussion (as you seem so far unlikely to actually be a rapist).
For us? More a daily reality.

You don't (I presume) walk around *every day* thinking "I might get accused of rape today. How do I behave to try and prevent that?".

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

I know the feeling - with the added 'fun' of a meeting eating up more of my LJ work time.

In general you're right, I don't spend my time thinking it all the time, and I am aware that I'm talking in the abstract. As to why I don't, 2 reasons: first and foremost, I'm not really out there these days; but more importantly, I think that I act in a fairly resonsible manner, including not being too pushy (insecurity and paranoia are great for that).

You don't (I presume) walk around *every day* thinking "I might get accused of rape today. How do I behave to try and prevent that?"
I suppose that there is also the fact that I don't walk around thinking out strategies to prevent being accused of other crimes - I don't think it because I haven't trangressed.

But are you honestly walking around thinking "I might be raped today"? I can't help but try and compare this with something on a personal level, but I don't spend my day thinking about being mugged or attacked. I know that this is comparing apples to oranges, but it's the best my mind can come up with.


I don't know, I get the feeling that the conversation has got a bit muddied here, it's either one to continue face-to-face, or it needs to be tightened up.

[hellison.livejournal.com]

It did go off on a bit of a tangent there. It is a subject it can be hard to be rational about (most of my comments start off as AROEJ£IR)£FAFDEF and get calmed down after breathing lots ;p).

On the thinking about rape every day, I did a post a few years back (after a similar discussion) on how it had made me realise just *how much* of my routine behaviour is based on Staying Safe.
It's not even that I think about it conciously, it's automatic - like parking close to the exits of anywhere I'll be leaving after dark; walking with keys in hand; not walking alone at night.

I'm not saying every woman does this or thinks this way, but _unhurt_ has listed a very similar thought process in a comment elsewhere here. It's something that lurks in the back of your head.

I still disagree about there being 'grades' of rape. Whether you've been threatened, beaten, held at gunpoint, or come round to some guy having had his fun, you've still been raped.
Someone had decided that *your* body is theirs to do whatever the hell they want with and used you like a very real Real Doll because *they* felt like it. A broken jaw or bruises isn't going to change that fact.

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

Someone had decided that *your* body is theirs to do whatever the hell they want with and used you like a very real Real Doll because *they* felt like it
But in terms of the 'case study' that we return to, I'm not sure that that's necessarily what happened, it sounds to me more akin to someone believing that the desires were the same. To my mind that is different to forcing your view on the other person.

Alas, I do have to dash now, but will be back on Sunday to eat my foot again.

Addendum aka After Cogitation aka Possibly making an ASS out of U and ME

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

Dammit, I was thinking about this on the bus home and had some points clarified in my head. Now I've forgotten them.

As very brief fragments of what I thought about:
- with regards to your last sentence - I think that part of my attitude is connected with the presumption of guilt. This is not to disregard the point that you make about where the burden of responsibility lies [see next point].
- there are also certain codes of conduct that I would assume (see title of comment) would be adopted as decent behaviour - the thread of my comments were based on the assumption of someone appearing aware (merry rather than shitfaced if you will). I'm not talking about comatose figures (as much as anything else, what's the attraction?).
- I'm not sure I can readily articulate it, but there's also a point of treating people as responsible adults. This is where it gets tricky in assessing capability - is it right for me to decide that the woman I fancy doesn't know what's best? As a contradiction/caveat to this, obviously being unable to stand up, passing out, general impaired coherence are obviously good indicators to leave it. But, then again, this returns to my previous point - what's the attraction in sleeping with someone completely blotto?

Re: Addendum aka After Cogitation aka Possibly making an ASS out of U and ME

[hellison.livejournal.com]

sadly, as in the anecdote in the article and others elsewhere in the discussion now illustrate, there are guys who DO fi nd it attractive. Or not off-putting enough to stop.

Which is why i'd like to see more discussion of why the hell some guys DO this, not why didn't the women do x, y or z to ensure some guy WOULDN'T do it. I said it elsewhere, but it's not women's responsibilty to make men NOT be rapists. It's men's responsibility to Not Rape People.

THe problem with grey areas is that, well, they're grey. There's always context and no hard and fast answer. Other than (I would say) if you're not sure, don't have the sex. That way there's no chance of getting it wrong.

ps there is nothing worse than having composed an excellent, masterful and arguement-clinching lj post/comment on the way home then FORGETTING it all when you sit down to type ;p

Re: Addendum aka After Cogitation aka Possibly making an ASS out of U and ME

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, the anecdote is one of those points that I'd like to investigate further - we only hear one side, second-hand. It might be the truth, but it's not the complete truth. Certainly as the facts are presented it's damning, but I don't know whether the guy realised that she was as drunk as she apparently was.

I appreciate the fact that it's a man's responsibility not rape someone, but in all fairness shouldn't that be "it's also a man's responsibility"? Otherwise the burden shifts completely the other way and the emphasis (to my mind) seems to be "It's all at the feet of the men, women have no responsibility at all" which seems to me to be rendering them impotent. This may be a question of semantics, and I still don't have the luxury of sitting down for long and going through this (have to dash home this weekend, and I'm already running late).
Yes it's a man's responsibility not to rape. Equally, it's a person's responsibility not to steal, murder, commit arson etc. But we're not talking about deliberate wanton acts being carried out (at least I don't think so), this sounds more like we're talking about the idiocies being carried out, the thoughtless acts that step over into committing a crime.

Greater education about consent and greater discussion of the impacts are certainly an idea. The depressing thing is how whether those that should pay heed to this actually pay attention and take it in. That's not an excuse, merely a thought. This isn't to say we should give up, but how to convey it, that's the question.

Re the PS - yes, that's my excuse everytime ;p