hellison | Boasting or Pride

Boasting or Pride

Something I've been thinking about for a bit now, that for some reason surfaced tonight.

Where is the line between pride in your achievements and abilities and 'boasting'? And why is boasting seen as such a bad thing?
I constantly run down my own acheivements and acomplishments.
I am *terrible* at accepting genuine compliments/praise for what I've done. They make me very uncomfortable and I instantly try to play down whatever it is I'm being complimented on.

Theorising here, it's partly being British (terribly sorry old chap, didn't mean to be better than you at something/ I ain't one for puttin' meself forward), partly being Irish (sure we're no good at anything, where's me pint?) and partly inflicted Irish Mother Syndrome (can't be showin' up the menfolk!).
That last one may be a general girl thing, I can only speak for myself.
I've always been taught not to brag, not to show off, not to flaunt achievements, accomplishments or wealth.
But WHY? If I'm good at something, why shouldn't I be able to say so, without adding some sort of deprecating rider along the lines of 'oh it was lucky, sure anyone could do it, you'd be even better at it, it's not that hard, I made lots of mistakes you didn't notice... and so on.

Never mentioning how much I earn, or how well I've done something, having to play down doing well in my degree because my brother didn't do as well (but then HIS degree was electrical engineering, mine was only archaeology, so it evens out really...) and then my then-boyfriend (really tho, he just wasn't that smart, so I just never mentioned my result). And yes, I AM still somewhat bitter about that.

Actually I know what set this off. In the off-licence tonight, buying a bottle of v. nice champers just because I felt like it, but in my head automatically forming an excuse in case I was asked what it was for.
After all I couldn't POSSIBLY say I was spending £30 on it just because I felt like it!

But why not? Why shouldn't I be proud of the fact that I do this because I can afford it because I EARNED it? Why should I feel guilty and cover it up?

So. Just this once, I am going to list the things I can do, and do well, with no riders, no excuses, no derogatory comments.

I am good at my job.
I got a 2:1 in my degree without having to slog my guts out or even stop going to the bar.
I help run a company that started out with just the 3 of us and now has 11 more employees with more on the way.
I earn a good salary, with profits from the company on top of that.
I have paid enough off my mortgage that it's now standing at about half of what my house is actually worth.
I can afford to go to Canada next week and, if I had enough leave (and someone to look after the animals) I could still afford to go to Sydney again next month.
I can afford to buy a bottle of very nice champagne for no other reason than I like it.
I can open and pour a bottle of champagne without either blinding someone with the cork or wasting half the bottle Formula One Style.
I can do all this and still have a healthy savings account.

I can drive a car
I can drive a bus
I passed the test for both of these first time.
I can jump-start a car.
I can check fuel, oil, water and tyre pressure levels on a car and bus and replenish as needed.

I can use a power drill.
I can put up shelves.
I can use a lawn mower and strimmer.
I can use a mattock and a long-tailed shovel (it's all leverage).

I can feed, groom, tack up, muck out and generally look after and handle a horse.
I can ride a horse.
I can get my obstreperous 16'2hh hunter to do what I want, when I want, most of the time.
I know what obstreperous means and how to spell it ;p

I don't have children of my own, but I am capable - and confident - enough with even young babies that my siblings and friends will entrust their children to me, not just for a couple of hours, but for a couple of days.

When I became a creator on the mud - http://discworld.atuin.net - I learnt to code from scratch - and from Drakkos's handbook and other creators (hi

dasquian)
I created areas and objects in the game that not only worked, but people use and enjoy.
I created a monkey that can recite haiku's and wee on command (still one of my favourite things :p)
Non-creatorly, I can stab, mock, vine, bee and kill things with my BRAIN.

I can make pancakes.
I can make a decent cup of tea!

Some of these things I've done by myself, some I've done with the help of others, but all of them I'm damn proud of and I'm fed up of playing them down and pretending I'm not. So just this once, I'm not!

Give it a go, it feels damn good. There are plenty of things you can do and do well!
This post was sponsered by Pol Rogers Champange :p

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(deleted comment)

Seconded. :)

hehe thank you! (notcringingnotcringingnotcringing)

Hurrah, I've never known why people pretend they're less fabulous than they are, then again, I get called arrogant a lot :P

Exactly ;)
In fact it was partly your post about rubgy that sparked this off - why the hell shouldn't you say "I'm bloody good at this"? Why pretend you're not if you are and why are we expected to run ourselves down all the time?

Hmm... well, karma perhaps. We lost today and I got my cheek split open :/

Didn't even get a fit nurse, although she was very nice (actually, she probably was very fit 30 years ago, and probably still is to a sixty year old).

Oops! Can't win them all.
Still you can use your manly scarring to get sympathy and drinks on wed :p

Anavrinny is right! Your force of personality, love of fun and being a brilliant friend is part of the helen experience!

I'm an experience? Yay!

Oh most definitely.

We have been studying this in English Language! ;)

According to Deborah Tannen this sort of behaviour is common amongst women because of their social interaction goals. When women talk it is mainly to build bridges, form bonds and make sure everyone is happy (mostly, there are exceptions, yes there are mean women, blah blah). Part of doing this is ensuring that everyone feels comfortable. If you boast about your achievements then you may make others feel uncomfortable, which goes against the 'rapport talk', female style.

In a research piece conducted by H.M. Leet-Pellegrini he had pairings of people (m-m, f-f, m-f) discuss the issue of television violence on children. In some experiments he armed one of the pair with knowledge, and the time to absorb that knowledge, so as to make them 'the expert'.

In cases where the woman was 'the expert' and the man wasn't, she supported the man's position more than 'normal' (ie in m-m groupings or f-f groupings). The woman didn't want to display her knowledge in many cases, and would even down-play it.

This, according to Leet-Pelligrini is because women, when speaking, play a game of "have I been sufficiently helpful?" or "do you like me?" as opposed to the man's game of "have I won?" or "do you respect me?"

In the 70's this difference in style was termed "the deficit framework", because it was believed that the way men used language was superior. Now we call it "the difference framework", accepting that there are differences, but that the differences aren't a negative thing. ;)

Tannen even says that women will ritualistically degrade themselves in the knowledge that their female friends will play their ritualistic role of bringing them back up. E.G. Woman "My hair looks terrible." Friend "No it doesn't, it's fine."

Deborah Tannen (I <3 Tannen) also goes on to explain that women generally act as if they don't want authority, so that if/when they are not offered it they don't look foolish in front of others. She relates this to her own experiences as a world famous linguist. She often gets invited to speak on language and if invited onto a radio program will speak confidently. However, she wont just call into a station, even if the topic is something she is an expert in. She believes this is because in the first instance, she is a guest and her authority is supported and respected by those around her. In the second case she would either have to introduce herself and seem big headed (and run the risk of not being recognised) or she can simply state her opinion as a regular Joe and have it rejected because they don't recognise her authority on the matter. :)

Sorry to use your comments page as a revision tool, but I find this stuff quite fascinating. ;)

That *is* fascinating! I haven't seen studies like this before but it matches exactly what goes on in my head. Even as I was writing this, there was a voice in the back of my head worrying that I might be seen to be putting other people down because maybe they coulnd't do some of those things.

Ditto with the not wanting to seem to be the expert or showing off knowledge. Which goes back to 'don't be showing the men up', and don't be seen to be showing off.
Mind you a few pints of cider and it gets a lot easier ;)

I don't *think* I play the 'oh i look awful/ no you don't' game so much, but I know a lot of women who do and I'm sure I have done it before!

But yes, fascinating stuff ;)

I don't *think* I play the 'oh i look awful/ no you don't' game so much, but I know a lot of women who do and I'm sure I have done it before!

But you would know, and automatically kick into, your expected role in the ritual if one of your friends said how terrible they were looking, wouldn't you? And you would feel quite mortified if, after taking the one-down position by saying how bad you looked/were at something your friend just agreed (not jokingly agreed, just flat agreed that you sucked). You'd be expecting them to bring you back up with their reply. We tend to call it fishing for compliments, but it is very ritualistic behaviour among women. :)

I think I'm going to use my research book voucher (when I get it) to buy one of Tannen's books. She's fab. ;)

--

I think I need to add the *generally* tag again. Please, no one get offended or tell me you don't do this and how so and so male you know does it. When talking about people it's really only possible to speak in general terms. ;)

Oh yes I would totally fulfil the role expected, and do. I probably do it myself much more than I realise too now I think about it. As you said it's very ritual behaviour and almost *expected* in some cases.

There was another really interesting experiment which we read about in class where they took three person strong mixed groups, gave them a task to do and recorded the results. In half of the experiments they picked a leader at random. In the other half they gave the participants tests to complete, then picked a leader at random, but told them that they were the leader because they'd scored better in the test.

When women were, in their minds, randomly picked they were poor leaders, didn't wield authority and generally the task didn't go well. However, when the woman believed she was the leader through virtue of her experience and knowledge, she was able to wield the authority much more effectively, was confident and the task went well.

All very interesting, and good revision practice! ;D

I think you've just started a meme...

For once I actually hope I have ;)

Well, I've done one...

I know what you mean - if I get a genuine compliment I get very flustered and/or embarrassed and generally garble incomprehensibly or laugh it away. I am equally shit at giving out real compliments and am very self-aware, and worried that I sound creepy or that I'm sucking up for some ulterior reasons - this is accentuated by the fact that I don't do it very often, so when I do, I'm more conscious that it's out-of-character for me, see above ;p

I think the reason boasting is seen as bad is that it can introduce a competitive element into social situations - people don't want to be made to feel inferior to others in any way, and saying that you're better than your peers at something is doing just that. Obviously it's not perceived as badly to tell your friends how good you are at a hobby in which they have no personal interest, but when it becomes more relevant to your audience (eg your salary, or how good you are at a game you're playing as you're playing it), it makes more of statement.

Which in turn makes people on edge... it's hard to be warm to someone who has put out a challenge to your place in the pecking order, which on a primal, ape-society level, it is. If you're vying for the position as the alpha male, you're not out for cooperation and friendship, you're out for respect and submission. We're a little more advanced than that, I think, but it's still there in the background. And I've put this forward as a very male-male competitive thing, but I think in current society the position of "alpha male" (and competitiveness that goes with it) in social and workplace terms can be held by either gender.

Which, all in all, is a shame. We should be able to say how great we are without feeling concerned that people resent us for it. And we can - but it requires finding the right time and manner to do it (of which this is certainly one ;p).

I'm great at giving compliments, and generally manage to run myself down yet more in the process (You're a coding whizz, I'd NEVER have been able to do that myself!)

I do get your point about not bragging about salaries or other prowess, but I'm not even talking about saying 'I'm better that you' just 'I can do this and do it well.'
But yes a lot of it is to do with not wanting to make other people uncomfortable.
And it's interesting to see it from a male persepective too, since it has the same results as from the female, but for very different reasons.

Bloody good for you!

I'm struggling with a similar thing at the moment. By the way, do you have excess free randomised guilt? I've been going through a lot of that as well recently. The bloke says you'd be hard pushed to tell which of us had the catholic upbringing these days.

I am actually quite good on the guilt front, it doesn't bother me *too* much! Mind you thats comparing myself to others who have also enjoyed a catholic upbringing, so I probably still have more than average!

But you should do this too. Mind you it helps to be a bit drunk, but to start you off, you can make damn good icons!

Thank you! And I will do this. It's quite funny how scared I am about doing it, but maybe after a glass of wine and Strictly Come Dancing the muse will strike...

It did take me quite a while last night- and an entire bottle of champagne - to get up the nerve to post this, even tho I've been thinking about it for some time now.

Go for it tho, it does feel good once it's done! Even tho I did have a major cringe this morning when I remembered I'd actually gone and done it, I am fighting it now ;p

WHO got kicked out this week (was in Donegal so missed it)

Sorry for frivolity - am reading down posts and composing a message in my head...

It was Patsy and Anton - but Zoe and Ian were in the last two despite coming second with the judges.

James Martin managed to survive which means that he must have come top in the phone vote.

Bah

On an unrelated point Lilia looked very drab this evening right up till she did the exhibition dance with Cliff Richard.

I can get my obstreperous 16'2hh hunter to do what I want, when I want, most of the time.
I know what obsterperous means and how to spell it ;p

Rrrrrrrrrright.

Also, you're damn entertaining, you're the perfect host (as in - fun, completely irreverent, and you make your guests feel comfortable and as at-home as they can be), and you've great taste in friends ;)

ROFL I didn't notice that, i got it right the first time tho! I blame teh champagne ;) (editeditedit)

And thank you m'dear, I should have added that I have very good taste in friends ;)

Oer *impressed*

Wish I could put up something like this but i don't think I have the guts, not even after a bottle of bubbly...

Try it! Once you've started it gets a little bit easier as you go :)

i love this topic - and NOT in a 'ritual support' way, please note! i hope to return to it when sober, but there are a giant pile of interesting things up there i wish to ramble about, some of which i find particularly relevant as i run a company with two blokes. hmmmmmm. making the brain work at 1.50am, this is a bad thing.

heh you and me both :p at least neither of yours are actually insane ;)

cmere - the fellas i know are just as tortured about receiving compliments as i am - may be an Irish thing?

I have to go to a meeting in 15 mins or I would do a proper post but here are some random thoughts

- I do a lot of work with the EU and of course all the different teams from the member states go round stereotyping eachother. Guess what the Irish stereotype is? Anxious to be liked and looking for feedback all the time. Makes one think...

Hellison you are brave and great and loyal and fun and mad and honest and many more things. Good for you for this theme and I'll get back to it this afternoon.

ps as I have Resolved to stop squirming and denying compliments, or at least attempt to I shall just say Thank you v. much!

But you forgot LOVELY.

HOW could I have forgotten? Lovely indeed - have some more virtual white vanilla pod chocolate from me...

heh heh.

(the intelligent response was delayed by icky cramps and and evening of due south dvding with smallsarah - clearly i was awash with lady hormones this week!)

Here I am trying to type a coherent post and I've dropped tuna sandwich all down my bosom %$^$^%£

I was thinking about why it is so hard to talk about the things you're good out without apologising profusely and undermining everything. For me, i think it's because I'm terrified that
a) i'll be contradicted and therefore find out the awful truth that in fact I am crap and have only been fooling myself all these years
OR
b) I won't be contradicted to my face but people will be sniggering behind my back about what a self-deluded fool I am
OR
c) People will think I'm big cow who thinks I'm great.

'Thinks she's great' - that's an interesting insult, what's wrong with thinking you're great? In Ireland, anyway, it's a total no-no. It's been so engrained in us that anyone who simply says what they are good at causes total confusion and fear amongst the audience who have no idea how to respond. Sometimes the result is muttering and shuffling of feet, sometimes a direct attack. But the question is, how did it come about that this became such a strong element of our culture? (Hey all UK people am aware that similar things have been said of youse but don't want to make pronouncements about UK culture - let me know if things are different or same and why you think it is)

GO HELEN GO HELEN GO HELEN GO HELEN

PS - has anyone taken her advice yet and done a similar post? I haven't because I am a big chicken buck buck

Yep, C is my main problem and it pisses me off - see response to Malvino above - why SHOULDN'T we be able to say I am Good at This without being knocked down, apologising or seen as arrogant?
Why are we so unable to say it without qualifiers (but not as good as you, only on a good day, sure anyone could do it...)?

Also of course with A & B thrown in ;p

A few others have done them, littlebluefish, kelemvor, sleetersoulfire, mirrorshard that I can recall off the top of my head. So go do one!
Get drunk first, it helps (tho I think for me thats because I turn into me da when I'm pissed and he was never backward about coming forward!).

aha! Well, if I recall when you get drunk you break into other people's bedrooms and sit on them and talk and talk and fall on to the floor and get back up and talk some more and ask them are they asleep and wake them up if they are to talk to them, which is actually very cute and funny, BUT:
It doesn't normally consist of you telling people what you like about yourself, you're normally worrying about the person that you're sitting on....

Might do one, but, er, the only opportunity I have to do it is in work (LIKE< NO!) or at home and will have to wait for a while, because the Roo may wonder when he gets home why I am pished out of my face and shouting at the computer. Or, thinking about it, maybe not..erk..

right right done it right
*STRESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSED*

See that whole breaking in, sitting on the bed and rambling? Totally me da ;p He used to do it to us all the time.

Sometimes he'd even sing ;)

Aha, I remember you telling me - the singing!
But my main point is you'd normally be worrying drunkenly about the person in the bed, rather than yourself if you know worrimean

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