What Is Wrong With the World??

[hellison]

1. headline from bbcni re cervical cancer jab - "Girls urged to ABSTAIN in jab row"
why? Because its a dirty cancer you can get from SEX and obviously if you've been having sex you deserve it. Or... something.
More from the helpful FAQ here -

Colin Hart, Director of The Christian Institute, said the way to tackle the problem was not to offer injections, but to tell girls not to have under-age sex.

Ahh. So it's only *underage* sex that causes cancer. Good Girls won't get it, and thus don't need vaccinated. Well that's all clear then!

I know there are Other Issues around the vaccination and which version was chosen etc, but that's not what these people are saying. They're saying girls shouldn't be vaccinated against a potentially TERMINAL DISEASE, because then they might have sex! And we can't have that!!
Would there be the same outcry if it was discovered testicular cancer was also linked to a virus and teenage boys were offered it?

2. This article about date rape is making my head explode with WTF and RAGE. Because obviously if you go drinking with a guy who turns out not to care whether or not you're concious when he gets off on/in you, well that's YOUR fault you silly loose drunken woman. It's not like he's done anything WRONG, or should face any consequences for it! SKIN CRAWLING NOW.

SEND KITTENS PLZ. NEED HAPPY THOUGHTS.

ETA New Mistful Fic! and at lunchtime too. Couldn't have been better timed.

EDIT 2 - just to add, now the original RAGE has calmed slightly, this turned into a thought provoking discussion; a timely reminder the world isn't completley full of morons. Or at least my flist isn't ;) Thanks!

AAAAND if we can keep it civil kids, that would be good. _unhurt_, I still have crutches. And I know where you live. Keep up the ranting tho. Rants Good. CIder better. MOAR CIDER

Comments

[lazy-hoor.livejournal.com]

Bwahahahaha! Brilliant! :D

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

the view in that article that it wasn't rape because he didn't beat her up just infuriated me
Hmmm, I read that as "no signs of force", and granted, rape does not require bruising, but I suppose that what was meant was 'there was no sign of force'.

Which is why I think it's important to start impressing on guys the message of 'Don't have Sex if it's not clear'
Agreed, but the question of clarity is possibly the issue - if I perceive you to be compos mentis (in the example given there was potentially time to sober up a bit) then do I take your word for it, or assume that you don't know what you're saying?

'Come into my house' does NOT mean 'come into my body'
Oh absolutely, invites for coffee are just that and shouldn't be taken for a come on.

I also think that the cautioning and urging to take sensible precautions has turned into creating a sense of fear (honestly, it's amazing that anyone gets to work these days - or are there just certain street corners that are chocka with rapists, knife-fiends, junkies, perverts, white slavers and chuggers waiting to ambush the first pedestrian?).
However, is it unreasonable to suggest that someone should take care and be aware of their surrounding?

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

I've heard that, statistically, the scant clothing has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't think much of an article that said to protect your home against theft you should lock your doors, install an alarm and paint the front door blue because other colours only attract them, and what do you expect in that sort of situation anyway?

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

It was AIDS that allowed condoms to be freely available in Ireland. Though not without complaint.

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

Now, I don't want to sound like a rapist (because I'm not), and I don't want to sound pro-rapist (because I'm not), and I don't want to sound like Judge Pickles saying that a girl in a short skirt is just gagging for a throbbing member to be thrust up her (because I'm not)...

A few women of my acquaintance (some friends at Uni, mostly) were incredibly heavy drinkers, possibly borderline alcoholic. However, if you weren't watching what they were drinking and/or with them often enough, you wouldn't know they were drinking that much, because they were good at holding their drink. Except... their memories were somewhat shaky. It wasn't like they were embarrassed or covering things up (because there was plenty of embarrassing stuff they could remember, and laugh about) - just sometimes they completely forgot stuff.

In such a situation, you have:
- a woman who is incredibly drunk, and possibly too drunk to give informed consent, but looks just "merry" to the naked eye
- a man who thinks "Alright darling"
- a woman who says "Okay, let's shag!"
- a man who hops on board and makes squelching noises
- a woman who remembers none of this in the morning.

I don't know what the answer to a situation like that is.

[caramel-betty.livejournal.com]

Did God get quite irate?

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

He did. There's been a lot of striking down since then.

[hellison.livejournal.com]

It was this part of the article that I was referring to (albeit not very clearly, reading thro red mist BAD) -

"By date rape I mean non-consensual sex, but without the threat or use of violence. Factor in aggression and it automatically becomes rape, regardless of circumstances."

Because she seems to be saying that no violence = not rape, again, bringing the blame back to the woman for being so drunk/unconcious she didn't need to be restrained. As far as I'm concerned, any non-consenual sex IS rape regardless of circumstances and I just don't get how she can argue differently.

Clarity with two drunk people is always going to be tricky, and we have all responsibility for our own safety, but if someone is so drunk they're NOT aware of their surroundings, then surely it's better NOT to have sex with them?

[kanaalzahir.livejournal.com]

I get the feeling that you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that a woman, perhaps drunk, who goes this or that way is to blame for anything that happpens to her. Of course everyone should always be nice to everyone else, and not steal their things or rape them whether their houses are unlocked or they are drunk beyond belief. But at the same time, let's not be naïve shall we? People DO steal and rape and do all sorts of nasty stuff to others, and really, why does it cause an outrage to say that so and so are known risk factors (to get picky, the highest risk factor for being raped is being in a relationship with a man) and if you prefer not to get stolen from or raped you could start by avoiding them?

[failing-angel.livejournal.com]

I see where you're coming from, but re-reading the piece, I would suggest that she is in part separating out rape and date rape, which I don't think is a bad thing. If you will - unconsensual sex is bad, unconsensual sex with force, doubly so.

but if someone is so drunk they're NOT aware of their surroundings, then surely it's better NOT to have sex with them?
Again, that's the problem - I've been so drunk that I don't remember what I did the next day, but I'm given to understand that I've just seemed quite sloshed, but still aware of my surroundings. There's plenty of things I've done whilst drunk that I wouldn't sober, and indeed have regretted the next day.
I suppose part of my concern is that this might give rise to the argument of "I was drunk and so it was rape" and thus divorcing oneself from any responsibility. Please note, I mean this as being different from "I was drunk, passed out and was raped".

[repton-infinity.livejournal.com]

I bet the insurance company would blame you :-/

[jin-shei.livejournal.com]

Video the consent on your mobile!

*beams helpfully*

[hellison.livejournal.com]

Heh. Fair point. The bastards!

[hellison.livejournal.com]

Ah. Hmm. To me tho, rape itself IS a violent act, whether or not there are bruises afterwards. Even if the victim is handily unconsious, surely someone sticking parts of themselves *into your body* when you don't want them there IS violent? (not even getting to teh whole biological factors that sex you are not prepared to be having is going to be uncomfortable, if not downright painful. Unless he's a considerate rapist who brought his own lube...).

I suppose part of my concern is that this might give rise to the argument of "I was drunk and so it was rape" and thus divorcing oneself from any responsibility.
True, but how often does that actually happen? And do men not bear some repsonsibility for themselves and NOT getting themselves into that situation in the first place?
How is it different from saying "I was drunk so I didn't realise you didn't want sex" and thus divorcing oneself from any responsibility?

I do agree there is responsibility on both sides. But emphasis is *always* on the woman's responsibility. Even in the article the women concerned SAID 'i was to blame' for letting herself get into the situation. NO sense that the man was *equally* to blame for letting himself get into the same situation. and then for having sex with her.

It's going to be one that there is never a clear answer on. But (to steal a comment from elsewhere on the same topic), where are the articles urging men to be more careful? On how many men think its ok to have sex with a comatose women? On WHY they think that's ok (because they had dinner? Because she was flirting? because she invited them home? because she's there?)

None of this is directly aimed at you btw, most of it is thinking out loud (which is why I am actually enjoyining this now, rather than being ENRAGED as much, it's forcing me to think about WHY i got enraged etc).

[hellison.livejournal.com]

We've all been there, done that etc, my main problem is that the focus on 'stopping rape' is all aimed at what WOMEN should/shouldn't do to avoid it.

Where is the focus on what MEN should/shouldn't do to avoid being accused of rape or, you know, actually raping someone? Where are the articles urging men NOT to sleep with unconsious women? Pointing out that just because you carry some drunk women from a taxi to her door, doesn't automatically mean you get to shag her? that sometimes, even if she *seems* willing (or isn't actively protesting), its' STILL BETTER TO NOT SHAG HER.

Why do they make women responsible for NOT making men rapists?

(heh. Rant overload. Sorry ;p)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

are these women saying they've been raped? if not, there's your answer.

YOUR answer is not to fuck people who are passing out. which apparently you don't. so you're probably ok. maybe more men should try this approach!

some men seem pretty hazy on what consent actually implies. like the woman i know who shared a room with her ex at a house party they had been invited to before they split up. a room they agreed to share as friends. she went to bed earlier than him, alone. and woke up to find him - drunk - FUCKING her. because, you know, that consent he had when they were going out was good for LIFE yo!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

How is it different from saying "I was drunk so I didn't realise you didn't want sex" and thus divorcing oneself from any responsibility?

YES. THANK YOU.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

holy --

foolishly i read the article. the poor woman she talks about - raped by some shithole fuckwallet and blaming herself? because fucking a passed out woman = her fault for making herself vulnerable!

p.s. i assume i can apply this to men i meet, yes? wait till they pass out then do them in the ass with the biggest dildo i can find! no-one will be able to prove they didn't consent, right? i mean, maybe they DID want it when they were drunk? some guys like that. maybe they acted like they wanted it. i was drunk too, your honour! and anyway, really, they shouldn't have MADE THEMSELVES SO VULNERABLE the dirty sluts! and we were flirting earlier so clearly they were up for sex. (also apparently if you're drunk it's less bad when stuff happens to you? so i guess i'll be mugging some drunk folk tonight! they won't even care i betcha!)

yeah. only no. because that's a disgusting and criminal and fucked up idea. so why is it different for women? beuller. beuller. anyone? (only, i know the answer. men neeeed sexxxxx. women don't understaaaaand. it's so hard to stoooooop. whine whine fucking WHINE about how holding the notion that i am the only damn person who gets to control access to my own body and that this trumps some guy's drunken wish to get off using it = crazy crazy feminazi talk.)

drinking till you pass out may not be big or clever, but guess what? i don't CARE why you're semi/un-conscious. it STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT OKAY TO FUCK YOU WHEN YOU CAN'T GIVE CONSENT. WHAT PART OF THIS IS SO COMPLICATED? DO I NEED TO START CARRYING A SIGN? HANDING OUT LEAFLETS? it's certainly less reckless than getting so drunk you can't TELL if someone is able to give consent. but of course, anything that restricts men's freedom to get pissed and screw*, that's wrong and evil! women, know your limits! stay inside and sip shandy OR ELSE. and get raped while sober by your colleague/neighbour/friend/boyfriend. and THEN get lectured on what you could have done to prevent it. it's a win-win situation! in ASSHOLE WORLD.)



*i have honest-to-god had a guy i know and sometimes LIKE in RL tell me that the idea that people should maybe make sure their partner is sober enought to know what they're doing is stupid because he would never have gotten laid at university if he'd had to take that approach. it's nice to know that his priorities are in place! getting laid > not raping people. clearly.

i LOVE the universe today. love. it.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

yep, a guy followed me into my close and threatened to kill me, etc. etc. etc. (the etc. part? not fun!) i was in jeans and a t-shirt and a jacket, wearing converse allstars and carrying a 55 litre green backpack.

clearly it was my fault for having a job in a nightclub bar and wanting to get food & smokes on my way home instead of being escorted to my front door like a Good Woman would have been. there i was, wantonly being out in public as the sun came up like i had some kind of RIGHT.

[hellison.livejournal.com]

I told you not to read it :p

That's pretty much what happened to my head yesterday.

And silly silly unhurt, it is obviously OUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure those poor men don't rape us. It's not THEIR fault! they were DRUNK, and surely you can't be blamed for anything that happens when you were dru... oh wait.

(world stupid. don't think there is pub tonight. Sofa, cider and STABBING THE GODDAM HELL OUT OF THINGS on teh mud. STABSTABSTABSTABSTABSTAB)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

to get picky, the highest risk factor for being raped is being in a relationship with a man

since you admit that that's a massive risk factor, why aren't you advocating that people maybe start with the BIGGEST risk factors and just do not have relationships - social, sexual or otherwise - with men?*

women are ALWAYS being told how to avoid rape. and it DOESN'T STOP RAPE. and then they get BLAMED WHEN THEY ARE RAPED because "if she had only [insert advice] i mean, i'm not saying it was her fault, but...".

if you actually followed all the advice you would have to live in a small metal box that no men could access EVER. you certainly couldn't work, or travel, or socialise, or hike, or jog, or eat out, or travel anywhere without a bodyguard. or, you know, have a LIFE.

also, theft is not ever a good parallel for rape. try picking an invasive physical assault not a property crime.


really, why does it cause an outrage to say that so and so are known risk factors (to get picky, the highest risk factor for being raped is being in a relationship with a man) and if you prefer not to get stolen from or raped you could start by avoiding them?

hmm. why does it cause an outrage? let me think. oh, wait, i know! because women do in fact TRY TO AVOID BEING FUCKING RAPED. jesus. do you think we skip merrily along in our little girly world never giving any thought to the notion? news flash: it's a primary MOTHER FUCKING CONCERN a lot of the time. my #1 issue when i cycle tour alone? is WILL SOME ASSHOLE RAPE ME IN MY TENT. welcome to planet "having a vagina"! "is that guy following me or just walking the same way?" "the car park is dark and the buisness park gates are locked - i hope no-one is lurking out there when i leave the office. i have my keys in my hand, where would i hit him? would it work? is there anyone around if i yell? what if he has a knife?" some weeks i get to have that conversation with myself FIVE TIMES. so excuse me if i think you should close your privileged pie hole. i have a job and a life and as a result i have to weigh the risks of living in a world that has men who rape people in it all the bloody TIME.

and, OH BOY. "prefer not to get raped"? maybe you should choose your language bettter. "prefer". i "prefer" semi-skimmed milk in my tea and cream in my coffee. i don't "prefer" not to get raped. i fucking FEAR it. (also the accompanying risk of, ooh, murder!)

what's with this meme that women just never really thought about it! and go about recklessly getting their silly selves raped!? but logical menz can put us right. why have we never thought of this before? oh MY. guess what? getting drunk and passing out doesn't get you raped. it requires a rapist who chooses to take that action for that to happen. and yet, conveniently all we ever talk about is what women could do differently. and you know what? women's actions are not the problem here.**


*apparently the lesbian seperatists were right all along!
**usual disclaimer excepting the tiny proportion of rapists who are female.

[lazy-hoor.livejournal.com]

I love you.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

p.s. hellison informs me you're a woman too.

which just makes me all the more RRRAR at your comment.

*gives up most hope for the universe*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

I would suggest that she is in part separating out rape and date rape, which I don't think is a bad thing. If you will - unconsensual sex is bad, unconsensual sex with force, doubly so.

rape is sex without consent. so "date" rape is rape. if there was no consent it. was. rape.

this isn't advanced particle physics here you know!

there's no "not really rapey rape". lack of consent is what MAKES it rape. that's the DEFINITION. also, FEAR and FORCE are not quite the same thing. but, what, does the guy have to say the words "..or i'll kill you" before it's rape now? must the victim be able to show a sufficient number of bruises and lacerations?

excuse my SIMMERING RAGE but really. what the HELL?



i am so making educational flashcards or something.


p.s. you seem to be worried you might be accused of rape after drunken sexin'. maybe you should consider not getting drunk, if this keeps you awake at night? OH NO WAIT THAT WOULD BE AN UNFAIR AND RIDICULOUS RESTRICTION ON YOUR FREEDOM TO RUN YOUR LIFE AS YOU SEE FIT. unlike all the stuff women are supposed to do to avoid rape. that's quite different. they're women.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_unhurt_/]

i always knew that one day my feminazi invective would help me score with the ladies!